Thursday, February 12, 2009

Cochlear Implant + AVT= No Deaf School?


Apparently not always! See, life is like a McDonald's Happy Meal- you can ask for that girl toy - without fail they give you the boy toy...and you can ask for the six-piece chicken nugget- but without a doubt-every now and then you get the four-piece. What does a good mom always do??? Check that Happy Meal before driving away...

Kim left Jaden's Story on the comments of the last blog post. Hats off to his mom who saw her son suffering and did something about it, despite what the professionals tried telling her...

One particular comment in the article hit home:

Although I was fearful leaving him in class on his first day, my gut knew that he was safe, and that he would be understood there. When I say understood, I don’t mean language-wise, I mean that people would understand him being Deaf—that they would see him as a whole human being—a smart and beautiful little boy. All he needed was access to an accessible language.

Just like Jaden, Jordan was a king tantrum tosser and not a day went by during his pre-school years that I didn't drop him at that door with a gut-wrenching torment in the pit of my stomach. You know when your child is understood...and loved. They resented his presence at that pre-school, they were scared of him and his inability to communicate effectively. He had his support teacher beside him who loved him, or I would never have left him at the door; I knew she protected him and was able to communicate with him.

*What happens when you drop your child at school and he is ALONE - isolated by a lack of communication skills?*

Either you do what I did and you insist with intensive speech therapy at home, even if the results are very slow in coming. Note: I saw that Jordan was progressing. Or you do what Jaden's mom did, you seek other options - Jaden was not progressing. It is FUNDAMENTAL that these options exist.

DianRez wrote:

The biggest value in deaf schools, however, is not the quality of education (and that varies from school to school) but in the social environment. When one is equal to everybody else and can comprehend what happens around them, that is a priceless experience of normality unavailable in the outside world.

It is educational because it gives one an idea of what life would be like if one were hearing and/or treated like hearing people. With that insight, one can face the outside world and rightfully expect equal access.

For example, watching teachers discuss topics among themselves, watching peers argue about events, or just discussing things that do not directly involve oneself gives a child the feeling that he is not the center of his universe. This means not merely seeing people flap their mouths, but understanding them.

This prepares the child to give input, to contribute, to make choices, to ask questions. This teaches the child that there are bigger things out there that they need to know about.

When the child reaches his teens, this environment teaches him interactive skills that will impact his choice of a mate, raising his family, and keeping his professional and family relationships in order.

All of this can be available in the hearing environment, but is much harder to obtain, takes longer to understand, and teaches one a sense of helplessness before it teaches a sense of involvement. If it happens that the child learns a dependent state of mind, the hearing school does not offer much in learning independence.

Yes, keep all the options open for a variety of educational experiences, but do not close the schools for the deaf.


There is nothing more frustrating than not being able to communicate. Communication is a reciprocal operation- I tell you something, you validate me and then you tell me something. When the wires get crossed, messages get mixed and confusion ensues. A child cannot manage the confusion, so producing the message becomes even more difficult.

*It took Jordan until he was five years old to be able to introduce himself to another person without stumbling and mumbling, "Hi, my name is Jordan*

Psychological issues compound the confusion and our children get lost. There is nothing more tragic than a lost child. The parent is that child's lifeline. But that parent needs resources. And mainstreaming a Deaf child who cannot communicate orally is just not the answer for every deaf child.

133 comments:

Anonymous said...

It makes me to think of a movie in an early 1980's, "And my name is Jonah"

http://movies.msn.com/movies/movie/and-your-name-is-jonah/

I read Jaden's article and it's similar to Jonah's case. At this point, Jaden's parents must not forget that they *NEED* to re-establish and re-communicate with Jaden when he gets home from the residential school on weekends. (For instance)

I agree with Dianrez.

I just finished reading Candy's blog. Real good blog. I need some time to think and will response to her. I like her thinking, concise and wise.

White Ghost

Karen Mayes said...

Ahhhh...

There is no easy solution.

Even Bi Bi philosophy is insufficent, when it comes to oracy for CI children and late deafened children and HOH children as well as some Deaf children with aptitude for speaking/listening. FEW Deaf Bi Bi schools have Spoken English program (I do know Maryland School for the Deaf has one. Indiana School for the Deaf does not have one; it keeps shelving it, which is one of the reasons why my children are mainstreamed.) If Bi Bi philosophy contains oracy, explaining in some depth on how CI children could succeed in listening/speaking and learning ASL, hearing parents might be more willing to listen. But there is insufficent information in this area, soooo... hence AVT.

I have nothing against AVT; I just notice that there is a need for more concise information on Bi Bi philosophy/approach/methodology, especially in the area of oracy.

Anonymous said...

I just watched NBC world news tonight with Brian Williams who mentioned this at the end of his broadcast.

Research has shown that gesturing to babies are an effective form of communication...

"Think of sign language, for instance. Babies, in fact, start gesturing before they speak, Rowe said." "I think it is extremely encouraging," said Goldin-Meadow, a professor of psychology at the University of Chicago. "Gesture is detectable early, and here's something parents can do pretty early."

Area speech therapists said the new finding was welcome evidence for gesture-based activities already in use for children with delayed speech or enrolled in "baby sign language" classes.

"We definitely use gestures and signs," said Denise Boggs, a speech pathologist at Children's Memorial Hospital. "For any child that is not talking, it gives them a framework, gives them an idea of what communication is for, and down the road they fill that in with verbalizations." rmitchum@tribune.com

The full article can be seen here:
http://health.usnews.com/articles/health/healthday/2009/02/12/baby-gestures-linked-to-vocabulary-development.html (copy & paste to your browser).

As we've been saying...it doesn't hurt to add ASL to auditory/speech training as well.

Cheers,
Sharon

Kim said...

This is what Bilingualism is all about.

You all will see a lot of this slogan around:

ASL & English Bilingual Education
Assures No Deaf Child is Left Behind

Rachel @ Cochlear Implant Online said...

Hi all,

I just posted an interesting research study that was recently done on my blog - http://cochlearimplantonline.com/blog/?p=470

Kim said...

Rachel,

The research is all about children......at what age?

Are there any research about adults?

That is the big problem about you using children as a final result of the philosophy but not the real end of the result from an adult that can give you the success of how they were "groomed"

Rachel, you need to stop getting all these informations from your sponsor, i.e. CI industry to publicizes the misleading truth to the public about one-sided philosophy.... CI, oral, AVT with no visual language to be accepted.

Rachel, another words, they are using you!!!!

Anonymous said...

Kim,
Excuse me, but Rachel IS the adult CI success.

Rachel @ Cochlear Implant Online said...

Kim,

Where in the world did you get the information that I'm getting information from a sponsor? My dad is a medical researcher and thus, I have access to his medical research database. This research study was done by a group of medical professionals in Denmark. Where does it say in the document that the research was sponsored by a cochlear implant company?

I'm just a passionate advocate who is sharing other pediatric cochlear implant users' and my experiences and information on hearing and spoken language.

I'm just a member of a few organizations that support hearing and spoken language and cochlear implants just like people who support ASL are members of organizations that support ASL. They never tell me how I should advocate, and they're not using me. I make my own personal choices on how I want to advocate, and I CHOSE to be an advocate - not them.

If people who support ASL or any sign language approach have the right to support why ASL and sign language is a valuable option, then I have the right to support why using only hearing and spoken language is a valuable option. I'm entitled to my beliefs.

Kim said...

Rachel,

What you don't understand is that your advocating does more harm to many Deaf babies because there are many failures which apparently doesn't effect your moral thoughts.

Bilingual does less harm to all Deaf babies.

Choosing only one choice can causes huge ramification for a deaf child if the experimental philosophy fails such as oral only philosophy or speak and hear philosophy. Why gamble on one philosophy while bilingual philosophy will do less damage on the Deaf child.

Is your or your sponsor's ideology more important than the Deaf child's need to be fully achievable as a whole human being?

Anonymous said...

Yes, deaf schools are an option for CI kids who also speak.

My son goes to the school for the deaf in our state. He has the implant. He speaks, uses signed english AND is now becoming fluent in ASL! He also gets auditory therapy at his school.

So yes, it's possible.

Sue

Rachel @ Cochlear Implant Online said...

Kim,

I personally think that people who are advocating for the bi-bi approach and other sign language approaches are doing some harm too. So, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Another thing to consider - I was one of the first 200 children in the country to receive a cochlear implant. Thus, all of the first 200 pediatric cochlear implant users have just entered their adulthood. While I know a good number of the pioneers who were raised successfully only with the AVT or AO approach like me, none of them are willing to speak up on the blogs because many fear of getting their feelings hurt by being called "audist" and other undeserving comments, and they don't want to be bothered with these kind of dialogues. I'm willing to speak up because I don't mind getting feelings hurt as I have a tough skin, and I don't take the comments personally. So, just because I'm the only successful CI user speaking up in the blogsphere, that does not mean that I am an exception.

Also, to clear up the misinformation - I do NOT have a sponsor. Thus, I respectfully ask you to please don't perpetuate this misinformation. By the way, where did you hear that I have a sponsor? Whoever said it is spreading misinformation.

Kim said...

Rachel,

"I personally think that people who are advocating for the bi-bi approach and other sign language approaches are doing some harm too. So, we'll have to agree to disagree."

Where is your proof on this?

There are thousands of Deaf people harmed by the philosophy of oral only approach and you see them all over this blogsphere.

Don't mislead the public that Bi-Bi philosophy ruined any Deaf people.

And that is a big B.S. on your publicity along with your one-sided ideology!!!!!!

Enough is Enough!!!!!!!

Rachel @ Cochlear Implant Online said...

Kim,

Most people on the blogsphere who say that they're harmed by the oral philosophy are the older generation of deaf people, the ones who were raised without cochlear implants. I am talking about TODAY's generation of deaf children and young adults, the ones who are able to take advantage of cochlear implants and improved oral methodologies.

The research study that I just posted is one example that shows some children who were raised with sign language have a lower social well-being.

I would suggest that you read some of the stories on my website written by successful cochlear implant users who were raised only with the AV or AO approach like me - http://cochlearimplantonline.com/index2.php?shop

I would also watch this video - http://cochlearimplantonline.com/blog/?p=330

All of the children in this video except for one were raised with the AVT approach are living in fulfilling life and are very happy.

These are just a few examples of successful deaf children who have cochlear implants and were raised only with the hearing and spoken language philosophy. All throughout my life, at several cochlear implant related functions, I have met hundreds who are just like me. They're all just not on the blogsphere unlike the deaf people who were unsatisfied with their childhood life and believe in the bi-bi approach.

Anonymous said...

Jodi,

I have a question for you.

What would you do with your blog that appears to be 'hijacked' by few commenters diverting from the blog's topic and focusig on the specific methodology?

Your blogs as of lately, are showing a moderate viewpoint. You brought out a balance that is sorely needed. I know you have tried to promote a healthy dialogue and build bridges between two sides.

I need to send my belated thank yous for mentioning my name and my video, "The Greatest Irony". The purpose of this video is for me to express my opinion about the irony about the use of the methodologies in deaf education. No one ever thought of taking the best of each approaches and combine them to offer the best kind of education every deaf child could have. Bottom line, I am a moderate.

Today's recent Primetime News reported about the research in using gestures to young babies/toddlers showed acceleration language growth when older, and with these findings, it is encouraged to use gestures with the lower socioeconomic level families to overcome language delays and gaps.

See link: http://uk.reuters.com/article/scienceNewsMolt/idUKTRE51B6GS20090212

Now, I am dismayed by reading comments left on your blog, by several passionate individuals bickering over what they 'feel', 'think', and 'believe' what is the
'best way' to teach deaf children with a specific methodology. It breaks my heart to see that there is no 'compromise' there.

There are an increasing number of Deaf adults (CIers or non-CIers) who are moderate themselves, and they are receptive of having the best of both (ASL/AVT) to be taught in deaf children, and we are trying to make ourselves heard too.

Unfortunately, it is sad to see some people refuse to see this way, and they decided to hijack your blog by monopolizing the comments based on one specific approach.

Deja Vu, all over again, once too many times.

Jodi - what would you do?

Warm regards,
Amy Cohen Efron

Kim said...

Jodi,

I think that it is good to educate the public about the true colors of people like Rachel and her mother in blogs like this.

They are focusing only certain deaf people that can be oralized and have no saying about those that are unable to achieve the ability to be oralized. I regard them very self-centered type of people.

Amy's DVD about "The Greatest Irony" is the answer to all the problems that most Deaf people face in life. Simple concept of giving bilingual method to all Deaf babies which is so harmless but why do people like Rachel and her mother continue to mislead anyone that are looking for the answer to have their deaf child to start off with a language at start is beyond my beliefs of who these people are.

I really think Amy's "The Greatest Irony" DVD is what every parents should get before AGBell brainwashes that oral only method is the way to go with assistive devices to learn to speak and hear without any visual language which is American Sign Language.

I discovered peace with ASL after years of oral reality. And I still do speak but not limited to the communication skills that AGBell wants for all Deaf babies and children in schools by forbidding sign language and that is the whole problem since 1880.

Kim said...

Jodi,

I think that it is good to educate the public about the true colors of people like Rachel and her mother in blogs like this.

They are focusing only certain deaf people that can be oralized and have no saying about those that are unable to achieve the ability to be oralized. I regard them very self-centered type of people.

Amy's DVD about "The Greatest Irony" is the answer to all the problems that most Deaf people face in life. Simple concept of giving bilingual method to all Deaf babies which is so harmless but why do people like Rachel and her mother continue to mislead anyone that are looking for the answer to have their deaf child to start off with a language at start is beyond my beliefs of who these people are.

I really think Amy's "The Greatest Irony" DVD is what every parents should get before AGBell brainwashes that oral only method is the way to go with assistive devices to learn to speak and hear without any visual language which is American Sign Language.

I discovered peace with ASL after years of oral reality. And I still do speak but not limited to the communication skills that AGBell wants for all Deaf babies and children in schools by forbidding sign language and that is the whole problem since 1880.

Candy said...

I think Kim went way overboard.

I'm interested in reading everything about all sides. Obviously there's flaws in every methods out there.

It seems like there are still some people that has a "hard-on" for Rachel. (mind you, it is a slang [check out urban slangs] and not the other way 'round, if you think it is the other way 'round, then you have a dirty mind.)

Kim, please, I'd like to see all viewpoints, if you don't mind.

Rachel @ Cochlear Implant Online said...

If the research study that I posted stated that some children who use both sign language and spoken language have low social well-being, then why is it the the best option for ALL deaf children?

I think the best solution is that the parents should be educated that they need to do their own research and make their own decision on which methodology is the best fit for their own family and their child. It's ultimately the parent's choice.

Anonymous said...

Hi Kim,

Thank you so much for your kind words about "The Greatest Irony".

Warmly,
Amy Cohen Efron

Anonymous said...

Jodie,
Thanks for giving Deaf Schools a chance. They mean a lot to so many.



Amy, (The Greatest Irony)

When is ASL a methodology? ASL is a language as equal to English. When you equate ASL to a methodology you equate it to something less than English.



Rachel,
Children are still being victimized by strict oralism everyday. It isn't the older generation. There are plenty of stories to back up those children who have not benefited from CI's or other technologies in today's world. Start looking outside your little circle. No one needs to see the website you keep posting of the CI successes. We see everyday, the innocent languageless children all around us.

Their parents are sold the dream but the reality is that their children don't do well with the CI's . What happens to them? I can tell you... They are finally allowed to learn ASL but too many times after developmental delays have taken place. They become the victim of the system.

How many victims do we need to see. In my opinion, one is toooooo many.

Bilingual education ASL and English (written and even spoken) fails no one.

Deaf schools are cherished by Deaf students in today's world. It is not a thing of the past. Deaf schools are schools where everyone speaks the same language which is critical to social, emotional, and academic achievement.

Deaf Schools are now trying to adapt to the many students who have cochlear implants. I am confident they can handle this challenge.


Karen,
I cannot imagine that a mainstreamed public school is better equipt your child with a CI than any Deaf School. The challenges are still there. Your child has to adapt to the group settings of a fast paced English language and classroom. There are still pros and cons. The AVT that they need still needs to take place out of the standard classroom. Missing or guessing what is being said in the classroom should never have to take place for any Deaf student.


These student go on to be very independent in "mainstream" society and less dependent on society.


Rachel, Please you are still young, remember that not everyone is like you Rachel. The gamble on the whole group is not worth a few successes. I am happy for you but am sad to see so many children without language just because speech has outweighed language.

Anonymous said...

Correction....This sentence was meant for students who graduate from Bilingual Deaf Schools.

"These student go on to be very independent in "mainstream" society and less dependent on society."

Kim said...

Candy,

Your comment, "hard on"

You are one loco that should stay over at Deaf Village with your peers

Anonymous said...

In response to Anonymous,

You stated:


Amy, (The Greatest Irony)

When is ASL a methodology? ASL is a language as equal to English. When you equate ASL to a methodology you equate it to something less than English.


I appreciate you pinpointing that and it is not my intention to equate ASL to a methodology as you described it.

I realized that the bilingual/bicultural is an approach to teach by using ASL as a language.

Thank you so much for clarifying that, and allowing me to have the opportunity to restate this.

In closing, ASL and written (and spoken whenever can) English should be provided to deaf children early as possible.

Amy Cohen Efron

Anonymous said...

Rachel@CI...
huh? you said, "All of the children in this video except for one were raised with the AVT approach are living in fulfilling life and are very happy."

hummm, take a look at just a few of well known deaf people who are not only fulfilled but living an extremely successful life. Check this out:
http://www.deafpeople.com/action/index.html

Also, you said that "... I have met hundreds who are just like me. They're all just not on the blogsphere unlike the deaf people who were unsatisfied with their childhood life and believe in the bi-bi approach."

There less than .03% of us on the blogsphere. There are many other deaf people with CIs that continue to be successful in their lives using both ASL and spoken language as well as those who have not had success with CIs and are struggling now to learn ASL and playing "catch-up". You have yet to show me why it is harmful or detrimental and that it would "slow down" the development of auditory/speech training if ASL is being taught prior to or at the same time. Even today...there are stilll many children being dumped to deaf schools because their implant is not functioning as expected and failed miserablly being mainstreamed. They will grow up to be adults who will eventually speak out against AVT/Oral method only.

Research in European countries are to be taken with a grain of salt....one needs to be very familiar with the history and attitude of hearing people towards the deaf community. Believe me, I know...I am married to a deaf man from Germany who's deaf brother is still living there and have a brother-in-law from Germany and their schools and research are at least 20 years behind. The exception is with the Scandinavian countries.

Let's not compare CI versus sign language. The argument here is to incorporate ASL from the beginning and see where it leads...if the child can successfully use both then that gives the child the best of both worlds. It's not to say the child has to choose one over the other. Many of us who has the best of both function just fine and lead wonderful, happy and successful lives just as well.

Cheers,
Sharon

mishkazena said...

Jodi, I am sorry someone hijacked your post with a link, diverting the audience's attention away from your post.

Yes, there are a fair number of deaf children with c.i. attending deaf schools, where their communication needs are better met.

AVT doesn't work for all deaf kids using cochlear implants. It's important that the parents be cognizant of this and that other options remain viable for these kids.

There is no one cookie cutter for all Deaf and HoH kids. Some will do fine in mainstream programs while others are better off attending Deaf schools. Some are very comfortable using cochlear implants and AVT while others are more comfortable using cochlear implants and ASL. Many Deaf kids are also happy without cochlear implants, using ASL.

Jodi, you are providing a wealth of information to hearing parents here.

Rachel @ Cochlear Implant Online said...

"Research in European countries are to be taken with a grain of salt....one needs to be very familiar with the history and attitude of hearing people towards the deaf community. Believe me, I know...I am married to a deaf man from Germany who's deaf brother is still living there and have a brother-in-law from Germany and their schools and research are at least 20 years behind. The exception is with the Scandinavian countries."

Sharon, the research study that I posted was published in 2008, not 20 years ago. Thus, your argument is pointless.

The video that I posted shows that not all deaf children who are raised with AVT are unhappy. I was just pointing out that there are many who were raised with the AV approach do exist.

Kim said...

"One last call"

ASL & English Bilingual Education
Assures No Deaf Child is Left Behind

Rachel @ Cochlear Implant Online said...

"The argument here is to incorporate ASL from the beginning and see where it leads...if the child can successfully use both then that gives the child the best of both worlds. It's not to say the child has to choose one over the other."

Sharon, this is a one-sided argument and shows that you believe that this is right way for ALL deaf children. If the research study that I posted stated that some deaf children who were raised with both spoken language and sign language have low social well-being, then your argument is not the right way for all deaf children.

I'm not here to point out that spoken language without sign language is the right way for all deaf children. I'm here to point out that spoken language without sign language is one of the viable options.

Rachel @ Cochlear Implant Online said...

*"I was just pointing out that there are many who were raised with the AV approach do exist."

I left out a few words:

I was just pointing out that there are many who were raised with the AV approach and are happy with their lives do exist.

Candy said...

Rachel, I wouldn't rely on one study only. Only 167 children participated in the study. We have no idea the level of sign language that's involved, there's so many other factors to consider too. There needs to be an unbiased study (this one isn't unbiased.) The purpose of that study was to see the correlation of CI, speech and language outcomes in relation to social well being of a child. What you have, is good. Let's see more. Are there any similar studies done in America?

Anonymous said...

Rachel@CI...
I said, European researchers and schools are 20 years BEHIND. I've given leadership workshop in European countries and visited many deaf schools. I would take their research with a grain of salt.
In Germany...there are only five certified deaf teachers teaching deaf children. 75% of the teachers that work in deaf schools do not know sign language...and they still go around with the attitude that hearing people are "superior" because the deaf cannot talk. The last workshop I gave was in 2005. (in Switzerland there are no certified deaf teachers but there are 2 deaf teacher aides; and Italy...there are a handful of deaf teachers.)

And I was merely pointing out that there are many happy, well adjusted deaf people who are successful just as well as there are deaf with AVT/Oral training too. I never indicated that those with CI and no signing skills were unhappy or unsuccessful. I was only pointing out to provide ASL to them from the get go and those that don't succeed has ASL to fall back and their language development have not been delayed. Hope you can see the difference.

Cheers,
Sharon

Anonymous said...

Yes, parents should be given all the information so they can make an appropriate and informed decision.

Right now, there still is such a push for oralism, the CI, AVT, mainstreaming etc. Things have not changed since my time. My parents too were told that the deaf child needs to learn to speak and not to depend on sign language. When I found out my son was deaf, I was so excited because I thought things were different. I thought more parents would be signing and involved in the deaf community. To my shock, nope! I can count the parents who sign on one hand.

Rachel, we need information to be more balanced. Right now parents are receiving biased information from the professionals, heavily in favor of oralism. Deaf role models are frequently not consulted.

By the way, I was raised using the oral method and yes I was an oral success. But I found sign language, found the deaf community. I would never withhold this from my two children who are deaf and hard of hearing. One of my sons has the implant. He speaks and signs. They have the best of both!

Sue

Candy said...

Kim,

ASL/Bilingual does not work for all.

Neither does CI.

No one method works for ALL.

Rachel, here's the problem. Many deaf teachers and teachers aides works with many, in fact, too many deaf kids with C.I. that did not succeed in a mainstream program, thus, they were dumped at a deaf/hoh mainstream program or a deaf school.

So, what happened? Maybe we need to focus on why certain methods failed and go from there.

Anonymous said...

Rachel@CI...
meant to say ...to provide babies with ASL from the get go....and see where it leads once the baby is older.

Good night...
Sharon

Rachel @ Cochlear Implant Online said...

"meant to say ...to provide babies with ASL from the get go....and see where it leads once the baby is older."

But what if ASL do end up affecting children's language development and their social skills later on in their life?

Kim said...

Candy, You said,

"ASL/Bilingual does not work for all.

Neither does CI.

No one method works for ALL."



ASL/Bilingual is not the same as CI

ASL/Bilingual is the same as English, a real language.

Do not group CI with English

CI is a method or an option

English is a language

ASL is a language

Bilingual is ASL language and English language, not a method.

Candy, please don't treat ASL as an option or method any more than you should not treat English as an option or method for Deaf babies and children in schools.

Dianrez said...

Rachel, people are afraid of making irreversible decisions at the wrong time. A combined approach isn't irreversible and does no damage. There is plenty of time later on to discard the parts that don't work as well later.

Do what the rest of us is doing: get your words in but advocate it as part of a comprehensive approach. There is nothing wrong with a comprehensive approach, but plenty wrong with a severely limited one.

Anonymous said...

Candy,
"...too many deaf kids with C.I. that did not succeed in a mainstream program, thus, they were dumped at a deaf/hoh mainstream program or a deaf school."
Please explain why 'dumped' is the term that best describes the change in placement for these children. I would hope that the 'deaf/hoh mainstream program or a deaf school' is not a 'dump', but rather a more viable placement where they can get what is needed to educate them.

Rachel @ Cochlear Implant Online said...

"There is nothing wrong with a comprehensive approach"

I have to respectfully disagree because if there are research studies including one that I posted on this blog state that sign language do affect deaf children in some way, then I can't support that it is the best option for ALL deaf children. BUT, it is certainly a viable option for some deaf children. As I reiterate, I'm not saying that AVT/AO only is the right way for all deaf children. I'm just saying that it is a viable option, and it still needs to be in the picture with all the other options.

mishkazena said...

How can ASL hurt language development? ASL is a language itself!

The difference between ASL and spoken English is the accessibility to the child. If the child can rely on his eyes to absorb the language, then ASL cannot fail the child nor can it hurt a child's linguistic development. If a Deaf child cannot use the cochlear implant to understand the spoken language fully, for whatever reasons, that will hurt the linguistic development due to the partial access to a language.

The whole point is the accessibility. As languages, both English and ASL cannot harm linguistic development.... unless accessibility to the language itself is impaired. For example, if you have a child with impaired vision, then that child will have problems accessing ASL, a visual language. If ASL is the sole language for this visual impaired child, then the linguistic development of the child will be damaged.

That's the point of the argument. Not every Deaf child has the capability to use the cochlear implant to understand the spoken language. The cochlear implant may work, but the brain may not fully recognize the sounds.

Any time a child has incomplete access to a language, the social and emotional welfare of the child will be affected

Valhallian said...

This blog keeps getting better, keep up the god work Jodi as it causes us all to look at this from various avenues.

Upon reading the blog and the comments one question quickly comes to mind altho I doubt anyone would be able to answer it.

To quote Rachel, "Another thing to consider - I was one of the first 200 children in the country to receive a cochlear implant. Thus, all of the first 200 pediatric cochlear implant users have just entered their adulthood."

My question is this, out of those 200, what approaches did they all use, i.e. AVT only, and what is the success rate?

Candy said...

Dumped is not a great word to use, but, it is a word many deaf teachers would use. I am repeating what I am hearing these days.

I have had several deaf teachers and deaf teacher aides who work in a deaf and hoh mainstreaming program who are exhausted with the extra work they're burdened with to get these kids with cochlear implant that did not do well in a public or a regular mainstreamed classes. These kids are stealing valuable class time, yet they have to work with them to bring their language up to par with the rest of the class in order to participate with the class.

This is a serious issue that seems to be pushed aside. While I do see success stories of many C.I. kids in the deaf blogs, the same cannot be said out there in the real world.

How many are not succeeding is anyone's guess. I don't even have the slightest idea myself.

It's not to say that CI is a failure, it is not. It is just that, it does not work for everyone.

Kim, I can't deal with small minded things that comes from you. I would be wasting my time. Just try to contribute to the discussion in a civil way. You make the deaf community look bad, trust me. If I think so, and I am part of the deaf community, then what I say must be true.

Candy said...

One more thing, Kim.

I am HOH I use ASL/PSE and I write in English and I speak English and I also wear a hearing aid, which is a tool. What works for me will not work for every deaf/hoh child.

Likewise, those who opts for a CI, writes and speaks in English, and even that does not work for every child.

Additionally, those who are deaf/hoh uses ASL Exclusively may or may not have great English skill, but manage to succeed in life and even THAT does not work for every child.

Please do not assume that one method/way/language works for every deaf/hoh child. That approach will be a tragedy.

To all, a good night...Ciao~

Anonymous said...

Candy,
'Dumped' is much more than "not a great word to use." The picture painted with these words is far too offensive. If I were a parent looking at all my options, this would surely make me think twice before entrusting by precious child to these people and schools.

Candy said...

Anonymous,

I feel ya.

Take it up with the deaf teachers and/or deaf teachers aides that said that. I'm just repeating what they told me.

Adios! It's bed time for Bonzo.

mishkazena said...

The reason for the choice of that word 'dumping' is the attitude of the public schools toward Deaf Schools. The public system doesn't view the Deaf schools one of the viable options.

They will fight to keep the Deaf students as it is "cost effective" to educate the deaf child in the public schools than in Deaf schools. When the failure of the Deaf child to succeed academically becomes too obvious, the student is now a 'liability' and is dumped at the Deaf school, usually with minimal language skills and poor academic skills. The teachers at the Deaf schools are left to 'rehabilitate' the Deaf students. The limited resources of the Deaf schools are further strained.

Having shed the poor performing students, the mainstreamed programs are able to maintain their good academic performance with the Deaf students. The academic performances of the Deaf schools are pulled down by the dumping syndrome.

Anonymous said...

No matter how you try to explain it, it is still offensive and insensitive to the students they serve.
I would venture to guess that these children were not in the mainstream, but in Special Education classes, where their scores didn't affect general education scores. Most of the Special Education scores are seperated from the rest. Thus the mainstreamed programs academic performance is not affected with or without these children.

MM said...

I think Candy's view has a lot of merit. We need to take in views from everywhere. These A G Bell comments are a bit beyond me as a Brit, (Even although he was a Scot !), but I Have read an official statement given by A G Bell, and they do not appear to be against sign language, and they recognise it as a cultural thing too.

I suppose as a predominantly oral instituion, they are just going to recognise primarily that, but I don't see hate messages as such, from them, but others, just a "You do your thing, we will do ours.." I did join in a debate about it, regarding the intransigents of both sides should get sidelined by us all, and for God's sake give it a rest, but the shutters came down again.

Bridge building is going to be a lot harder than anyone really thinks.... I am surprised deaf.read has allowed some of these blogs, that contain little more than hate against other deaf people. They lost the plot years ago, they cannot change...

Anonymous said...

Just finished my hectic time yesterday. Whoa! Jodi.....great job to moderate this scrolling comments.....I know you can't scroll everything.

I read the article about the baby gestures. I was told that there was a nightly news with Brian Williams about the baby gestures as well.

It does *NOT* mean that the Deaf Bilingual Coalition is the winner. All I am saying is that the "Signing Time!" is the winner!

Must recognize that Amy's famous project, "The Greatest Irony" could be the analogy to the "Signing Time!" Good work, Amy. Therefore, The Greatest Irony is the winner as well.

That's what NBC news, Brian Williams mentioned about the baby gestures last night.....

White Ghost

Anonymous said...

Buon giorno....

Rachel...
"...if there are research studies including one that I posted on this blog state that sign language do affect deaf children in some way"...

Is the world black and white to you? This research you posted is only from one view...and from Denmark.

Here is what MacCoun from UCBerkley says about researchers "...researchers are "not philosopher kings" and should accept that disagreeable research findings are often held to higher standards."


Kim...
You are a very passionate person and I feel you! The Bi-Bi approach does have merit and although I might think that way, I would not claim that it is "the only approach."

Candy...
You say a lot of things that are pretty much what I say...different strokes for different folks!

White Ghost...
Nobody is the winner...we all just strive to live the best life we can. Many of us share our experiences and we need to show all sides of various approach...allow others to sit back and reflect on other experiences...not opinions. Some of us are better at expressing things in a technical way and some of us are not...but collectively we all have given much food for thought to parents of deaf babies/children. My advice to parents are to continue to explore ...do not waste the baby/child's valuable learning period...every second is precious to language development for them.

Cheers,
Sharon

Kim said...

White Ghost,

I don't think Deaf Bilingual Coalition wants to be in any contest to win.

Please focus on the BIG PICTURE,

DEAF BABIES AND CHILDREN IN SCHOOLS

Anonymous said...

Kim,

Yes, let's focus on the children.

Bi Bi is not for all, Cochlear Implant is not for all, Hearing Aides are not for all, Deaf Schools are not for all, AVT is not for all. Nothing that we know of is right for all.

Let's provide information to the parents so they can make the best choice for their children.

I personally plan to visit some of the schools/centers to see for myself.

Anonymous said...

Anon...
Who are you? What's your background?? Curious! Give yourself an identity name so we can separate you from other Anon.

Cheers,
Sharon

Kim said...

Anonymous,

You said, "Let's provide information to the parents so they can make the best choice for their children.
I personally plan to visit some of the schools/centers to see for myself."

Please do also talk to adults that grew up with CI, oralism, ASL or whatever and make your judgement about how they interact with you and ask for their opinion about what should have been done right.

The best people to talk to is that they have been both oralism and ASL, the people that know the different between oral deaf culture and Deaf ASL culture. Most Deaf ASL culture people are bilingual and many have experience with oralism. The oral deaf culture people may be too insular to give you broad views of what is like to be really deaf because they have been assimilated to think like hearing culture.

mishkazena said...

Anon, I didn't come up with the term. I've seen this term used by both the Deaf educators and Deaf students, including the students who ended being rejected by the public schools. If they weren't treated as trash, very likely the terms wouldn't have been used. Incidentally many of these students were served in the mainstreamed programs, not the special education.

Similarly the non-performing oral students are called oral failures. Frequently the students who were former oralists described this is how they felt in the oral system.

Yes, these words are negative and also offensive. Unfortunately they are accurate, too.. Perhaps the Deaf people want the world to know the harsh reality when they use these terms. It's their language and their feelings. Who are we to tell them these terms aren't acceptable, if this is the reality for them?

I presume if the Deaf schools were considered viable options from the beginning and the non performing students treated decently in these systems, these terms might not have surfaced.

Anonymous said...

Sharon,
I am a mother, grandmother, sister, aunt, niece, and friend.

Li-Li's Mom said...

I think the advocacy of those who have found a particular approach successful is very important: I want to continue to hear from those who found AVT with a CI to work and from those using a bi-bi approach with a CI (at times immersing the child in sign, at other times immersing the child in spoken English). Before we made the decision to go forward with the CI, I wanted the scoop from those who opted not to implant and explored various language and educational paths, and from those who went ahead with 1, 2 CIs.

But first contact, which is what Jodi was originally addressing, is so important and a little hard to come by in one place. I found this information and lots of supporting research and anecdotal info., here, there, everywhere. But I was flabbergasted to find it all loaded with so much emotion and political baggage. It took a while to sift through the outrage and uproar and get to the facts: what options are available and what are the implications of each decision in terms of language acquisition, educational options, resources available.

Frankly, what Alexander Graham Bell said in a letter to his wife in 1920 has about as much to do with what educational resources or legislative support the AGBell organization is providing today as WK Kellogg's letters to his horse trainer in 1930 have to do with the Rice Krispies I eat in the morning. And to hear even those deaf people who are proud of acquiring multiple languages -- French, Spanish, German -- insist that knowledge of ASL somehow destroys brain cells and makes it difficult to learn English, or perhaps the waving of hands disrupts their brain patterns -- please, give that a rest, too. Language is very good. And it's not like chocolate, there can't be too much of this good thing. Lots of language is even better -- if you have the resources to provide it without sacrificing something more important to you.

As a new parent finding that my child was deaf, I was (and am) really turned off by the mutual disrespect I saw from both the AVT and the ASL crowds. I am astounded by the sniping and wish everyone would stop trying to discredit the choices made by others and -- if you truly believe in the approach you have taken -- celebrate it, discuss it, dissect it, critique it, just live it and show others what it's like, if it's working for you or not.

We weighed our choices very carefully, and continue to reassess them ALL THE TIME. Our choice of coupling bilateral CIs with a bi-bi education (alternating ASL and spoken English) at a signing school for the deaf in a class of 6 other CI preK kids and a CODA with 3 teachers plus an embedded SLP plus 3 weekly pull-out speech classes plus audiology all on grounds using a curriculum targeted at CI kids, is GREAT! But I can only speak for us, for another 3YO, an AVT program in an oral school for the deaf or in a mainstream preK class might be PERFECT, for another child, no aids and a school for the deaf, either oral or sign might be JUST RIGHT. And so on with SEE and Cue.

Just get that info out there and let the families who will put it to use assign a value.

Kim said...

To Li-Li's Mom,
"Just get that info out there and let the families who will put it to use assign a value."

I agree with you but do you realize the million dollar propaganda marketing system to parents about one-sided philosophy of "Independence Through Speaking and Listening" is the AGBell/AVT? They get tons of money from CI/auditory industries to promote the focus on the mouth and ears but not the mind of the Deaf babies and children in schools. Where is the proof? Look at their slogan,
"Independence Through Speaking and Listening"

The other side of the spectrum are mostly Deaf people that have experienced both reality, oral and signing and these people do not have the money like AGBell/its associates. These people are just the grassroot advocacy group to spread the truth regarding about bilingual concept.

This is why the Deaf Culture people seems to be "speaking" louder and try to get more attention according to their limitation having tons of money. They are just like the Black Culture back in the 60's when no one listened or have concerns until they got the Civil Right Acts of 1964. If not for the Civil Right Acts, President Obama would not have been educated.

The biggest problem with Deaf babies and children since Milan 1880 is LANGUAGE and EDUCATION.

Please understand why these Deaf people are getting tired of being ignored when they want to rectify the continuing problems since 1880 and it is still going on today.

Peace

Anonymous said...

Li-Li's Mom makes an excellent point in her last comment. Parents are NOT getting the info on ALL options in one place, the one critical, initial contact place where they are informed of their deaf child's hearing loss diagnosis. This means the doctor's office or the audiologist's office.

And, yes, the emotional baggage has got to be left out of presenting those options, so that parents don't wonder about people's agendas.

MZ, perhaps if one really thinks about it, the negative terminology such as "dumped" and "CI failure" comes not from the deaf community but from those in hearing culture who pass the negative terminology to us in the deaf community. Time to turn a negative term around back at those who start it, put it squarely back where it belongs, and ask "would you call your own young child a 'failure'?" :(

Ann_C

Paotie said...

Kim ..

You said: "What you don't understand is that your advocating does more harm to many Deaf babies because there are many failures which apparently doesn't effect your moral thoughts."

The same goes for the DBC.

Wasn't it you who said, "another words, they are using you!!!!"

Mishka, Dianrez and Amy F.C. were complaining last summer that the DBC leadership were cyberbullies, among other things.

Uh-huh.

I'm curious: how does it feel to be used?

:o)

Paotie

. said...

Oooh, he's baaaaaaaaack!

mcconnell

Paotie said...

Amy F. Cohen ..

You said: "... several passionate individuals bickering over what they 'feel', 'think', and 'believe' what is the' best way' to teach deaf children with a specific methodology."

You do the same.

Try, try again.

:o)

Paotie

. said...

You know what? Let's hope that finally a medical solution will be had very, very soon to restore/cure hearing loss. That way babies born with a particular hearing loss, let's say sensorineural, would be easily addressed and corrected very soon after a deaf baby is born. That way we won't have to worry about hearing parents making a "wrong" informed decision about cochlear implant, AVT, cued, aural and oral trainings, ASL, SEE, educational settings, deaf schools, oral schools, etc..etc..etc..ad nauseum. Wouldn't it be better to have finally a way to restore hearing completely and naturally for babies and toddlers born deaf? Then all this nonsense debate will simply go to the way side and subside considerably over time (especially when cochlear implant is the biggest issue and sore point among Deaf people).

What say you? Tell science researchers to hurry up and get this over with?

. said...

drats..the above comment was mine.

mcconnell

Kim said...

Poatie,

Are you saying that DBC is using me?

And speaking of Cyberbullies, I heard that you are one of the biggest cyberbullies against DBC and then you signed a pact not to cyberbully anymore.

But now Mike said that you are back.

. said...

Also, be aware that I used certain words in my comment above for a reason.

Paotie said...

Kim ..

You said: "... AGBell brainwashes."

Again, the same can be said for the DBC. Refer to Mishka, Dianrez and Amy F. Cohen's personal experiences with the DBC last summer.

Words like, "groupthink" and brainwashing were used by at least ONE of the three.

:o)

Paotie

Anonymous said...

Anon "..a mother, grandmother, sister, aunt, niece, and friend"

Glad to know you are going to visit a few schools and centers. go with an open mind and gather some information to share with us. It would help us to know what your knowledge about the deaf is...I believe it may make some difference..I'd like to know where you're coming from.

I look forward to seeing your summary report.

Cheers,
Sharon

Paotie said...

Anonymous ..

You said: " ... speech has outweighed language."

Speech IS language - it is called, English. Or Spanish. Or Russian. Or Italian.

:o)

Paotie

Paotie said...

Mishka ..

You said: "The reason for the choice of that word 'dumping' is the attitude of the public schools toward Deaf Schools. The public system doesn't view the Deaf schools one of the viable options."

I was mainstreamed for the following:

a) deaf school was wracked by sexual scandals
b) deaf school was located in another city, one where jobs were scarce (parents didn't want and couldn't afford to move)

Might want to consider these variables before making wholesale generalities about "dumping."

:o)

Paotie

. said...

Indeed. Communicating language via speech does make speech as a language. Look at the Navajo Indian's language. It's all spoken and it's language was never written down...ever! So valuable was this "undocumented" language that they helped win WWII because Germans couldn't get any documentation on this language in paper format and thus could not break the Navajo codes over the radio airwaves.

. said...

Also, Paotie. They look at accomplishment scores in the field of math, science, writing, and reading to make a decision on whether it's "better" to send a deaf/hh to a deaf school.

My Mom was horrified when she saw the educational results of one deaf school during the late 1960s and early 1970s which effectively sealed her decision that I deserved better. And so I began, finally, regular public school (not mainstreamed) because I was already at that level that I could talk and listen quite well. I thank my Mom everyday for her decision not to send me to a deaf school. I wouldn't be who I am today.

Thank you, MOM!! Happy Valentine's Day!!

mwaaaahh!

Paotie said...

Amy F. Cohen ..

You said: "In closing, ASL and written (and spoken whenever can) English should be provided to deaf children early as possible."

Okay.

You have a nice ideal. In fact, I once tried to support the bi-bi method but there is a major flaw with that argument.

Let me ask you this:

In language development, is it better for a child to master ONE language first and then master additional languages down the road?

Or, as you seem to advocate, is requiring children to master TWO languages at the same time conducive?

I do not recall any first-grader in public school being required to take Greek after English lessons.

Your suggestion sounds great but one I find entirely unrealistic in the general sense that you seem to expect and believe that ALL DEAF CHILDREN ARE EXACTLY THE SAME AND SHOULD LEARN MULTIPLE LANGUAGES AT THE SAME TIME.

Too many demands and too much pressure on parents and child alike can be detrimental, yes?

As you're discovering, there is always a catch with EVERY deaf educational paradigm.

Try, try again.

:o)

Paotie

mishkazena said...

Yes, most of the time the parents made the informed decision to keep their kids in the public school systems. My parents opted to raise me orally so I can benefit from good education and I was fortunate that I was able to.

However, not all parents are aware of the options available. It's not unusual for the public education systems not to inform them the option of Deaf schools. When some parents want to send their Deaf kids to Deaf schools at the beginning, they are actively discouraged, being told that the children must enroll in the public schools first. Often some parents are not even aware of the options..until much later, even though their kids aren't doing so well in public schools.

FSDB has a large enrollment as the parents were informed of the Deaf school option from the very beginning

Anonymous said...

All..
I was the one who commented that kids who did not succeed in acquiring speech/spoken language with their CI were "dumped" in deaf schools.

I was refering specifically those group of kids...it is common conversations educators have in deaf schools that it is sad these kids did not acquire basic language skills between birth - 3 years of age when it is a critical time for them to acquire language. In the past 10 or 15 years...there were quite a number of kids who ended up attending deaf schools without sign language skills, without spoken language skills with CI's and struggled to learn.

I don't get it...it's simple, add sign language from the beginning and then drop it as the child grows and evidence shows his/her best learning strengths be it oral/AVT/signing/cued/whatever the parents have chosen to proceed based on what programs/schools that are available to the child. So many other factors must be considered.

Cheers,
Sharon

Paotie said...

Mishka ..

You said: "Yes, most of the time the parents made the informed decision to keep their kids in the public school systems"

and then you said: "not all parents are aware of the options available"

and then you said: "Often some parents are not even aware of the options."

Please clarify.

My parents were very and fully aware of all options available - more than most parents.

And like McConnell said, I am so grateful my Mamma sent me to a public school. And I would've skipped second grade but didn't.

Why? Because I'm deaf.

Ironically.

:o)

Paotie

Anonymous said...

Paotie...

you said to Amy..."Or, as you seem to advocate, is requiring children to master TWO languages at the same time conducive?

I do not recall any first-grader in public school being required to take Greek after English lessons."

huh??? come again??!! there are hearing children that go to school and learn spoken English then come home speaking Greek with their family. Sure, it is possible for children to proceed with ASL and English at school. My niece in Germany who is 7 years old...started learning English at the age of 3 in school so now she and I have had many wonderful conversations in English...she's quite good at it.

Cheers,
Sharon

mishkazena said...

Paotie, used? I cannot speak for others, but I don't use that word to describe how I feel.

I believe the other core members were hopeful, when they began to hijack DBC, that they can indoctrinate and convert the moderates successfully to their ideology. Their hopes didn't materialize as the majority of the moderates refused to be converted. This eventually led to two's decisions to leave and others were kicked out afterwards.

Personally I've never encountered this before. This experience had taught me a lot and be more wary about other people who may have hidden ulterior motives. I think had DBC stuck to its original mission of adding ASL as a viable option for Deaf babies, there would be more constructive dialogues between the parties. But some people wanted more to balance out AGBell Association.

So now we have AGBell with its one side ideology and DBC with its one side ideology.

Paotie said...

Sharon ..

You said: "there are hearing children that go to school and learn spoken English then come home speaking Greek with their family."

Right. That implies the family is fluent in Greek.

The majority of deaf children born in the United States are born to hearing parents WHO ARE NOT FLUENT IN ASL.

But you and many bi-bi proponents include a hidden requirement that the child MUST become fluent in ASL, regardless of the family home or what language is spoken at home.

That is why Deaf parents with Deaf children who are fluent in ASL master OTHER (English) languages far easier than kiddos with hearing parents who DO NOT use ASL.

Catching up yet?

:o)

Paotie

. said...

Key words....

"..there are hearing children.."

So, which group has it easier on learning a new language? Hearing children or Deaf children?

mcconnell

Paotie said...

Mishka ..

At least say what you mean, dude.

You said: "So now we have AGBell with its one side ideology and DBC with its one side ideology."

That's right. I have always been in the middle. I grew up fearful of AG Bell Foundation. I grew up fearful of Deaf Culture, too.

Today, I feel sorry for ANY parent that comes across ANY deaf advocacy group that DEMANDS or REQUIRES ANYTHING.

:o)

Paotie

Paotie said...

McConnell ..

The short answer is that hearing kiddos can learn multiple languages easier than Deaf kiddos, all things being equal.

People need to remember that there are - for A LOT of deaf children - multiple disabilities involved with the deafness or hearing loss. In fact, some of the actual causes of deafness can also cause learning disabilities.

Why that is never addressed is beyond me.

For example, Mr. John Egbert, the founder of the DBC, suffered from undiagnosed and untreated dyslexia when he was a young boy in an oral program. Yes, it is a sad tale but one that needs to be put into perspective: his suffering, it could be argued, came not from oralism itself, but from the untreated and undiagnosed dyslexia.



:o)

Paotie

Anonymous said...

Paotie,

Why would you have skipped second grade but didn't, "because I'm deaf...ironically"? Just wondering.

Ann_C

. said...

"People need to remember that there are - for A LOT of deaf children - multiple disabilities involved with the deafness or hearing loss. In fact, some of the actual causes of deafness can also cause learning disabilities."


Bingo, Paotie!

Anonymous said...

Paotie...

I'm almost there... ;-)

True that at home the hearing parents who speak Greek are fluent. Even so, parents with minimal basic signs can be successful for the time being until they decide which venue to pursue for their child.

Never once did I say that babies or parents must become fluent in ASL...babies will talk in babytalk for a while. Since studies have shown that hearing babies pick up gestures and signs first before they talk. With that in mind, I would encourage parents to take a bit of time while they're searching and testing their baby's hearing loss-- to learn basic signs and have fun with their child. Enjoy the time with the baby and communicate while it helps develop basic language skills for the kid.

Do tell me what's wrong with this picture?

..said (Mike, I don't know what symbol you're using...can't find it!)

both...I know of 3 deaf families and their deaf children are fluent in 4 languages languages (signed and written English/Italian; German/English and French/English...

Cheers,
Sharon

Anonymous said...

my typing is getting sloppy, time for my mid-day java!!

Cheerios...
Sharon

. said...

A broad interpretation of the term “deaf” with multiple disabilities implies a hearing loss
combined with another disability generally needing services beyond those provided for a
child with the single disability of hearing loss. Additional disabilities may include mental
retardation, learning disabilities, ADD/ADHD, visual impairment, cerebral palsy,
orthopedic involvement, or other physical disabilities. Such a definition, however, does
not describe any general characteristics of deaf children with additional disabilities.

The differences among deaf children with multiple disabilities are great. They have
different accompanying disabilities; they function at different level and have different
ways of learning. The level of the hearing loss and of the additional disability influences
their level of functioning. In addition, like that of other deaf and hard of hearing children,
the age of onset of each disability, and the age when help/appropriate education is
received. A further challenge is the age of identification for the deaf children who with
moderate multiple disabilities tends to be later than for deaf students. They are often
educated as students with a hearing loss for several years before the additional difficulties
are recognized. In cases of severe disability, the opposite is true: additional difficulties
are recognized early.

.
.
Counting deaf children with multiple disabilities is difficult. Not all are in programs for
deaf and hard of hearing students. Furthermore, the additional disability may range from
mild to moderate to severe. Estimates are that from 20% to 40% of all deaf and hard of
hearing children have accompanying disabilities. Statistics collected by the Center for
Assessment and Demographic Studies of the Gallaudet Research Institute support this.
During the 1996-97 school year, the Center's Annual Survey of Deaf and Hard-of-
Hearing Children and Youth reported 50,629 children in special educational programs
across the U.S. This number represents approximately 65% of all deaf and hard of
hearing children receiving special education in the country. Of the 50,629, 16,386 or 34%
were reported as having one or more "educationally significant" disabilities in addition to
deafness.
https://clerccenter2.gallaudet.edu/InfoToGo/141.pdf

Anonymous said...

Sharon ..

Hearing babies pick up gestures in part because the gestures are reinforced through verbal communication.

Why is that you compare deaf children to hearing children? WHy then do we have deaf schools if you're going to compare deaf with hearing children?

What's the point of all this fuss, then?

:o)

Paotie

Anonymous said...

Paotie...

you said..."Hearing babies pick up gestures in part because the gestures are reinforced through verbal communication."

Are you serious? I need double jolt java!!!

Cheers,
Sharon

. said...

"both...I know of 3 deaf families and their deaf children are fluent in 4 languages languages (signed and written English/Italian; German/English and French/English..."

Sharon, so, are you proposing that Deaf schools teach at least one additional languages (or more) in German, French, Italian, Russian, etc....?

Paotie said...

McConnell ..

Thanks for including that link regarding additional disabilities for deaf children.

Couldn't think of a better person to epitomize the link you gave than John Egbert.

:o)

Paotie

. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Paotie said...

Sharon ..

You said: "Are you serious?"

Yup.

Remember, these are HEARING CHILDREN with HEARING PARENTS using HEARING WORDS (i.e. English) while "gesturing."

:o)

Paotie

. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
. said...

Sharon, also, what are the grammatical similarities between ASL and French? German? Italian? Versus English?



Had to correct my own grammar!! lol

Anonymous said...

I'm having my triple shot machiatto (don't even wanna look up spelling).

fino al più presto!
Sharon

Anonymous said...

Paotie & ...said,

I think you two were brothers at birth one time and got separated. ;-)

Ok, on a serious note here...I'm going to stop and let the hearing parents who may have some comments regarding their own experience with signing to their deaf baby/child. I have my views but then, they're mine based on my personal experiences; my exposure with people in my job; research I've read; friends and collegues in the field of ci/deaf/schools; etc.

Gonna give it a rest for now. ;-0

Cheers,
Sharon

Jodi Cutler Del Dottore said...

HI...
Um. I just got home from CAIRO. Don't ask. I'll read these tomorrow...my email address is about to explode and I need my bed. So, goodnight to everyone and thanks for commenting (I think, still have to read...)
Jodi

Paotie said...

Sharon ..

You said: "I have my views but then, they're mine based on my personal experiences; my exposure with people in my job; research I've read; friends and collegues in the field of ci/deaf/schools; etc."

Same here.

:o)

Paotie

Anonymous said...

Paotie...wanna join me for cup of capruccino tomorrow am? ;-)

Welcome home and enjoy reading/sleeping. I'm exhausted too and it's only 5pm EST.

Ciao...
Sharon

Anonymous said...

It is a NO-BRAINER-

"The majority of deaf children born in the United States are born to hearing parents WHO ARE NOT FLUENT IN ASL." [true, whose fault is it? Sorry, Im being blunt!]

and

"That is why Deaf parents with Deaf children who are fluent in ASL master OTHER (English) languages far easier than kiddos with hearing parents who DO NOT use ASL." [wonderful! Couldnt ask for more! Again, double whammy for those folks not using ASL!]

You forget Deaf parents with Deaf children who are fluent in ASL and ALSO in English! [That is especially true! Im not bsing!]

To prove my point- my folks are hearing and I was enrolled in oral school(failed,because I was mischevelous kid, not because of behavioral problems!), public school(failed,because kids arent socially bright,TRUE! [dont beleive it?] look at kids today how they interacts with other disabilities) and then finally graduated from Deaf school(awesome!).

And yes, I can speak and sign and I dont have a CI (HA of course) More importanly, my folks CAN sign! I was lucky and I thanked them for trying so hard that they INCLUDED ASL!

Without it- as you stated above- that proves 90% of them feels it is socially inconvenient for them to learn ASL and to embrace their child! [Thats the hard truth! I kid you not!] I have met many parents who doesnt do it simply because they 'dont have time' or they are 'too busy'. Well?!

So, it is very simple- If every parents communicate their child to use BOTH ASL and English Speaking(if Deaf kids have the ability to speak, great!) If not, thats okay! ASL will not hurt their language acquisition even if they can master other language?! [I have 4, patting on my back..]

Again, Im not bashing CI but think about it. All of those successes comes with a cost and once they get out in the hearing world. You forget, there is half way to meet. It is for those hearing people who doesnt know about CI/deafness (or you just prefer not calling yourself deaf but perfectly hearing), suit yourself: do have an attitude problem! Just think about it real hard!

Wouldnt it be great for all hearing kids learning ASL in schools and all of that could miraculously disappeared all of problems today!

FSDB alumni

Anonymous said...

Oh My God!

Looks like the "sociopath" Paotie escaped from the mental asylum ward from DeafVillage.com

Sociopath Paotie's escape could be set up by an accomplice, Mike McConnell, The well known deranged Psychopath

BE AWARE OF ANY PSEUDO NAME OF "PAOTIE"/SOCIOPATH OR "KOCONUT"/Psychopath on any blogsphere.

This warning is not verified yet but be aware.

. said...

You spelled "Koconut" wrong.

It's all about possessing critical thinking skills since knee-jerk, emotional responses do not qualify as one.

mcconnell

Rachel @ Cochlear Implant Online said...

I just came back from running all over the place today.

Looks like Paotie and McConnell have taken care of my arguments. Thank you to both of you for helping me out. :o)

Karen Mayes said...

11:10 PM Annoymous:

*eyebrows rising* at your immature comment.

If you knew my kids as well as most of my friends do, you would have agreed that I made the best decisions I could for my kids to go mainstreaming.

So be careful with judging... especially when you have never met my children.

Even the best Deaf educators would agree that some Deaf children would benefit from mainstreaming, depending on the factors which I don't need to explain since I get the tone from your comments, that you would not listen.

*smiling sweetly*

Anonymous said...

Whoa,

Mike McConnell
Your comment,

"You spelled "Koconut" wrong.

It's all about possessing critical thinking skills since knee-jerk, emotional responses do not qualify as one."


Guess it takes one to know one,

Sorry that I am unable to comprehend the critical thinking of yours.

I am maybe just too sane to be a patient of yours to understand.

Please explain.

. said...

Um, *ahem*, anony, I'm talking about the need to possess critical thinking skills and not allow emotional blather talks get in the way.

Anonymous said...

Rachel Yeah yeah now you have three - Jeff, Paotie, & Mike. giggling

Anonymous said...

Ha,

no way to believe that Jeff would any thing to do with those s__________h of Paotie or Koconut sicko-head.

But I could be wrong by .001 percent.

You can figure it out though.

Anonymous said...

Anony,

FYI, it's Kokonut Pundit, with another 'k', if you're referring to Mike. You're apparently not familiar with New Mexico lore.

I'd beware of anybody yelling PSYCHOPATH! or SOCIOPATH! online. Some anony dropping another bomb. *roll of eyes* Here we again.

Ann_C

Anonymous said...

Oops, here we again, meant "here we go again."

Ann_C

Anonymous said...

Ann C.

don't be duped by your idols,

Think of the big picture, Deaf babies,

NOT the little picture, Kokonut or Pot-head Toe-ie

Candy said...

All of a sudden we have some anonymous that starts spewing insults and in the same vein talks about the bigger picture "Deaf babies," just isn't helping deaf babies at all.

I don't know how this thread have gotten so out of control but it reflects immaturity at best.

Bottom line is that parents will always have the ultimate say in the end and I can guarantee you that this particular anonymous just made it so easier for hearing parents to decide. Especially coming from a blog that advocates and reaches out to multitudes of hearing parents with deaf babies worldwide. Great job!

Kim said...

Candy,

Parents need to be aware of White Ghost, Mike McConnell, Paotie and yourself, Candy.

These all just talk the talk.

Have no ability to walk to talk.

Anonymous said...

Kim,

You sound like John Egbert.

Calling a spade a spade...dude.

Ann_C

Karen Mayes said...

Kim.

My kids have gone to a Deaf Bi Bi school. My oldest son attends there on a part time basis. He is doing a lot better in mainstreaming, more than the Deaf school though. My daughter asked to go mainstreaming, which I obliged and she is thriving very well. We use ASL all the time at home. Both of siblings talk to each other, not using ASL. I make it clear to both of my kids that they could go back to the Deaf Bi Bi school full time if they want to, but they are not interested, just thriving in mainstreaming, having friends, etc. Right now, my daughter's favorite classes in her mainstream school are... music and Spanish. My son enjoys humanities the most (English and social studies.) If they want to go to Gallaudet U., fine. Harvard? Fine. A community college? Fine.

Just FOLLOW your child's lead. Again as many wise, experienced people say... there is no one size that could fit all. AND... again, it all comes down to the parental (or guardian) involvement... no decisions are perfect.

mishkazena said...

Paotie, unfortunately not all parents do research.

There are many decent and nice people in the Deaf Culture. Of course, just like every other culture, there are people with strong ideologies and people with more moderate ideologies Some people are more tolerant to diversity while others are less tolerant.

Kim said...

Ann C

I would love to meet John Egbert.

You look like part of a clique with Paotie, Piano McConnell, White Ghost and Candy.

All blabber mouth and no show of community work.

You guys are no role model.

. said...

"Kim", pretty brave to talk nonsense behind an anonymous name and spout about walking the walk and such. Doing so would be pretty typical of those who have serious, personal issues. As for role models there are all kinds and for many different reasons why people look up to them.

http://www.handsandvoices.org/articles/deafpersp/V10-2_renaissance.htm

http://smokymike.blogspot.com/

Deaf Success Mag page 1 (now defunct) http://img141.exs.cx/img141/712/ds1magazine8bz.jpg

Deaf Success Mag page 2 (now defunct)
http://img165.exs.cx/img165/4851/ds2magazine6jx.jpg

http://deafstrongman.blogspot.com/2006/05/deaf-strongman-journal-50-competition.html

I've certainly walked the walk. Miles of it. You? You're just an anonymous commenter.

As for community work, how would you know? Truth is, you don't know squat.

Learn to quit while you're ahead, "Kim"...

Kim said...

Mike,

Community work I meant was helping Deaf babies and children, helping others. Not for yourself.

Lifting tires is not community work!

It is all about doing for others, especially those that their language and education have been deprived by self-interest reason to assimilate, conform like hearing people.

Mike, good for you that you achieve what you need to be impress yourself but what about the others that have been oppressed?

The egomaniac people just don't get it.

Could you?

Paula Rosenthal said...

It is painful to read these comments. The venom and distaste that is so prevalent in some of these comments is incredibly off-putting. If the goal is to be a window for parents to view communication options, then this is not what anyone is achieving here. This is not only unfair to parents, it is unfair to Jodi, who puts her heart and soul into creating this special blog that attracts people from all different ideologies.

Personal attacks and insinuations against Rachel and her mother for expressing their opinions and sharing information they have learned is shameful. They are put on the defensive over and over again. When will everyone decide to agree to disagree? You can write until you are blue in the fingers, but there are some folks who will never see or try to see anyone else's viewpoint.

I truly believe that parents need to do their own research and make their own choices for their children. While I ultimately chose for my daughter to be raised with oral communication, I did my research before I did.

I've never shared this before, but when Julie was (finally) correctly diagnosed, it was at an audiology department of a local deaf school. She was turning 2 years old and she had over a year's worth of expressive and receptive language delays due to her late diagnosis. We toured the deaf school's program, which at the time, only offered a total communication program. Many of the children in the class had other issues besides hearing loss. Some wore hearing aids, others did not. We watched as they signed and communicated with one another but not one of them spoke clearly. I watched everyone closely for quite some time and when they spoke, they were mouthing words that were not fully spoken or fully mouthed. Thus, I could understand or even lipread any of them.

Next, we went to see an oral communication program for preschoolers. There, children wore hearing aids and a few had a cochlear implant. The children were learning to talk. It was not a perfect program by any means, but my husband and I both have hearing loss and are both oral. It made sense to us that our toddler, who loved to babble and be heard, learn how to use her voice as well.

Once aided, our daughter began to say more than the 10 words she started school with. Eventually, she was putting together 5 word sentences clearly. And her progress continued as the years went on. By first grade, she was language appropriate and entered the mainstream with very little support. At the time she was academically ahead in both reading and math thanks to the second oral program we enrolled her in.

No one pushed oral education on us. We made an informed decision based on the resources that were available to us at the time. Nothing was set in stone and we monitored her progress very carefully. In fact, that's why we removed her from the first program and sought out another.

I have no doubt that Bilingualism or Bi-Bi is the right choice for some children and their families. But people need to recognize that Oral Deaf Education is the right choice for other kids and their families. There are many "successes" from all backgrounds and yes, there are children who unfortunately fall through the cracks for a variety of reasons. But you can't point to one group or the other and say, "See, our way is better." It just isn't true.

. said...

Er, um, "Kim", like I said, what do you know about my community work and the things I've done over the last 20 or so years? You don't. I didn't say the things I did in the links I provided are community work. They're not. Just hobbies of mine. Where did I say those things were community work? LoL. What I do does not always revolve around deaf/hh in my contributions and help. Each person has his/her reason and interest in doing what he/she want to give in return.

So, in a word, "Kim", you don't know nothing. Whatever personal issues and gripes you have in here that are manifested clearly in your writings using anonymity as your crutch and shield, learn to leave them behind the next time.

. said...

Paula, you did the right thing under the circumstances using your best judgement on communication access and educational needs. Just sad to see people throw venom because of what? Insecurity reason? Jealousy? Frustrations? What? We'll never know.

MM said...

I think American Mom needs to styart being alot more pro-active on 'Anon' comments,perhaps take a lead from e ? I DON'T allow them unless they address issues and respect others, the first sign they don't they are erased, I think 'Mom' gives them too much scope... it isn't 'free speech' it is plain and simply hate messages by people obviously far tooo cowardly to fess up to their own bigotry. We can't build a bridge, until we rid oursleves of these people. I contacted the moderators at defa.read last year pointing out stirrers and downright bigots and trouble-makers wwere using comment spots to promote their bile messages, it is down to us, to stop the spread of them, defa.read can zero an offending BLOG, but the comments are our responsibility,working with the moderators, we can sideline these extremists for good.

Jodi Cutler Del Dottore said...

I have no problem with "anon" comments. I believe in freedom of speech as long as there are no insults. Anon comments oftentimes lead to productive debates that hopefully can shed some light in grey areas...
I have a voice that I have no problem using- the only problem is that I have no time in these days- I'll be back on Sunday or Monday-for now...it's roses and sunshine on Valentine's Day!
Hugs to all,
Love,
Jodi

Karen Mayes said...

Hi ya'all...

It is nice seeing that some people are passionate, making ripples in their beliefs.

But bickering? It is not necessary. You know what, the parents who read these kind of blogs are normally well-informed and they'd raise their eyebrows at the kind of bickering... which we don't want that. :o/ Oral is here to stay. CIs are here to stay. ASL is here to stay... AND hearing parents are here to stay also. The majority of hearing people has NEVER met a Deaf person in their lives before.

Anyway, happy Valentine's Day!

Anonymous said...

"Kim" --

I am not here to bicker with you, ok? It's not necessary.

If you disagree with me, just be it and accept my views, ok?

White Ghost

Miss Kat's Parents said...

Wow, that was exhausting.

I despise the hate that is spewed back and forth by the two sides, I always have.

My daughter was born hearing. Due to a doctor's ignorance and arrogance she got very sick and ended up in the NICU shortly after birth. There she was given medication that saved her life but eventually stole her hearing.

She began to lose her hearing after 12 months old. At 18 months, it was moderatly severe and she received hearing aids, and we chose to begin to teach her ASL.

Fast forward to today. She is now 5 and has a CI. She is in a bi-bi school. She will be moving. Not because we want her to stop signing, or because we value spoken language over ASL, but because it is what is right for her. We have a very short window of opportunity for success with the implant. Most of the progress she will make will be in the next 3 years. We want her to have the most opportunities, and before the CI that meant ASL and bilingual education. Post-CI it means an oral program. It is not because we now value speech above language or education, but because the silence of bi-bi WILL hold her back. She needs to immersed in sound and spoken language and they just can't (or won't) do that.

This is a terribly bittersweet moment for us. We have always hoped that our child would be able to succeed with spoken language, but now that she has, we are sad for the things she will be forced to leave behind. She has a wonderful school with kind, loving, sweet friends. I had so hoped to see her grow up with them. I love her facial expression, and the way her body looks when she signs. She is so beautiful.

I hope that we will be able to continue her grwoth in ASL and in spoken language, but I fear the worst. When you have two communities that fight and loath each other the way that the Deaf and AVT do, it is difficult. I hope the local Deaf community will continue to see my daughter as their own, the way they have for so long.

So, I suppose I am jealous of the people in the OP. I wish that my school could bring the two together so that my baby could have the benefits of both.

Candy said...

Ms Kat's Parent,

I just read your post, actually I've been following it for some time (I should comment over there sometimes! ;) ) It's sad. And, I am really surprised that you're having difficulties with the IEP team. Usually they tend to do what the parent wants to do. I think you could fight it but, time spend fighting it, is time is wasted for that short window of opportunity you say you have for Ms Kat.

Like you said, you're still involved with the deaf community,I have no doubt that even with the move, Ms Kat will somehow manage to be able to do it all because you'll still expose her to the deaf community. I think it is very hard for many deaf people to understand the fact that if one has a C.I., in order to make it worthwhile, certain choices needs to be made. It's like buying a car, the manufacturer recommends 87 octane gas, for example, and if you disregard it and use 85, your car is going to not work the way it should (might die out soon, even.) so..with CI, there are guidelines and recommendations to follow in order to make the implant work for a child the way it was intended to. As with any directions on a box, if you don't follow it...you know the rest. And, I have come to a point, no...make it pass the point where, no matter what, there will always be someone who will not budge as we have seen.

Karen Mayes said...

Miss Kat's Parent,

Like Candy, I too follow your blog and I feel for you.

Hmmm... have you considered dual enrollment?

Bi Bi philosophy/approach has a fault... not much focus on oracy, so many deaf children (CI, hard of hearing, etc) slip through the cracks of Bi Bi. I too had to make the similiar decisions with my children, who both have aptitude for speaking and listening and I did not want to wait for the bi bi school to set up Spoken English program, so I went ahead and mainstreamed them and they are doing great. My son has dual enrollment...attending a local middle school in the mornings and the Deaf Bi Bi school in the afternoons. My daughter is full time mainstreamed and she receives no special help other than speech articulation therapy twice a week, during the lunch periods, so that she'd not miss out any general education classes.

I do know that one deaf bi bi school has Spoken English program, and it is Maryland School for the Deaf. I don't know about other Deaf Bi Bi schools. I can honestly say that Indiana School for the Deaf does not have one (so far I know it is planning to set it up next year, but then it has said that for the last few year, so I don't know.)

Best luck to Miss Kat's journey... sounds like you are very involved.

I hope you'd continue blogging about her journey through the school system.

Anonymous said...

Thank you Miss Kat's Parents and Karen Mayes...for blogging true accounts of what you've experienced. Now that's what I call informative blogging...telling it like it is and giving other parents information as well as suggestions! Same goes for LiLi's Mom and others that I may have omitted.

Parents can decide for themselves whether to go with recommendations from other parents and bloggers or not.

Cheers,
Sharon

MM said...

Why are people 'Anon' anyway ? If you have the conviction of your stated view, then why not be up front about it ? It used to be scared deaf people who disagreed with the communual view, and were afraid they would get ostracised by peers if they knew that. (Which said more about the closed shop approach of culture at that time).

These days I would have thought, nobody is bothered about that now. There is a distinct difference between 'online' comments and grass-root daily things. I think perhaps because there is no avenue in the deaf community to have 'debates' over things, you risk conflict personally there, which is sad...

Anonymous said...

Why would you say bi-bi would do more harm? I never heard HEARING baby being harmed by ASL. If a child truly benefit from CI, ASL plus Verbal would not harm him in the long term. Just like a it doesn't harm a hearing baby. But it does harm deaf babies if they were not signed since infancy.

If it does harm a child with CI, then more proof that they need ASL. Because it like going though the older generation of hearing aids all over again.

p.s. I am severe HOH since birth with hearing aids who attended mainstreamed school k-12th without sign language AND without a deaf program. I was the only one who was deaf in my school